Surely, I have not encountered much overt disrespect in this forum and the old one, but I have observed multiple instances of exclusion and disrespect of others over the years -- most notably when students are asking questions that aren't in resonance with the frequency of the collective mind of this group. They were not treated with a spirit of sharing and inclusion. They were shut down immediately and their perspectives dismissed as invalid. Thing is, I'm open and willing to learn what Mary has to offer regarding Lilith, but I can't do that without requesting source data because what she's saying doesn't feel *entirely* true to me. Not flat out wrong, there's certainly value to be had, but something just seems not quite right (could be because Sagittarius only sees one angle, thus the need for more "eyes" on any given subject to gain clarity, thus what she offers is not likely to be the full picture). I could be wrong, surely, but especially given the research I and others have performed on the matter (people such as Michael Tsarion, David Whitehead, Karen Horney, Wilhelm Reich, and more) there is *much* evidence to suggest there is, indeed, more to the story on Lilith and too, the Matriarchy transitional period. Thus, it seems prudent and wise to ask about the material Mary has used to derive her conclusions, does it not? How is it inappropriate to ask for that data? While some are content to not question it because it feels good/comforting/true to them, I am not one of those people, as such passive/yin thinking doesn't foster independent thought, at least from my experience and observations -- if anything it creates atrophy in the left brain (the masculine), and ultimately results in whole brain imbalance. I value/appreciate the right brain for all it offers, but to rely on it solely to learn and discern the reality of things seems most unwise. Truly, I see nothing inappropriate about my questions. Offensive, sure, I can see that due to the Arian/Aquarian nature of my words initially in this post, but inappropriate to value truth and clarity and to request such things from teachers in this forum? I don't think that's a fair or balanced assessment. In any case, I will certainly leave it there and continue onward. Love and respect to you all! Sincerely, Sarah DeHaven

I do hope she is willing to provide the data regarding where specifically the information is being sourced regarding Lilith's origins and role. It would be a tremendous help for students like myself who require such details to support our learning/investigative process. That said, there is something I want to add that feels important to speak on: Everyone expresses themselves differently, communicates differently. I wonder, have I acted in such a way where I am not worthy of being included in the learning process going on in this thread? The questions I have asked are valid, discerning questions, albeit brusque in their delivery, certainly not worthy of being excluded or ignored by Mary Blue, who Rad has stated, is quite intimately familiar with JWGs paradigm and as such is in a position from which she is teaching others here. I’m noticing that Helena and Jordyn are getting their questions answered at great length. Is it merely because they are pleasing to interact with? If that is the case, I must ask: is it right to expect everyone to act or speak the same way? If so, in this type of expectation are you fostering a thriving community of eager students as intended, or are you creating a cult? I am reminded of JWGs words on Leo and children and the importance of giving them room to individuate (Aquarius polarity) rather than force them to become derivatives or vehicles through which the Leo is vicariously actualizing itself. This topic of undistorted masculine (and feminine) is ground that needs to be covered and comprehended clearly. This is why I am a keen and voracious student of this subject matter, and have spent many hours/years studying it on my own and through the works of psychologists, therapists and historic researchers who have published works on female psychology and on the transition from matri(archal/lineal) times to patriarchal. I would like to learn and contribute to this forum and school both as a student and as an adult who has put in the time and effort (and continues to) to develop consciousness regarding this information, again, through my own personal work and from a variety of teachers well versed on the subjects of female psychology and anthropology. I was told by Deva that my unique voice in EA would be supported. And I do hope it will be because, even though my tone can be unpleasant for some, at the heart, this Soul is focused, dedicated, to improvement, to the Great Work. And, to take what is learned to share with others in support of their quest for self knowing and self acceptance. There is still much to learn for all of us here together in this community, students and teachers alike. I’d like to build bridges conducive to that. I hope you all, and Mary too, can see the value in what has been shared in this post. As always, with Great sincerity, Sarah DeHaven

Thanks for the response, Rad. Now, the only question that lingers is what is where specifically this information on Lilith's origins is coming from. I do hope Mary comes in to explain that piece of the puzzle. Surely I''m not the only one wondering!

Hi Rad, This is something I've never heard JWG speak of (regarding Lilith, I mean. Yes, he spoke of Men emanating from Women, but this additional Lilith stuff is not part of the "canon" JWG material, is it?). From my comprehension this is a forum teaching JWG's EA, so it will help to know what JWG's take on the descriptions of Lilith here in this thread are/were. I am happy to read the entirety of this thread carefully and thoroughly. Before that though, as it would take hours of time to accomplish, it will help to confirm some information - for instance: Who is Mary Blue? Is this not a pen name and not the actual person? And if so, who is she really (ie, what are her "credentials" to be speaking on this subject as with authority?) Where is this information about Lilith coming from specifically? I am familiar with the Garden of Eden myth and Lilith's connection there, but the assertions here in this thread regarding Lilith's role are going far beyond that and placing her in quite a foundational position in reference to the Soul and the evolution of humanity itself. This is something I'm willing to entertain and learn from, but first I need to know who it is I'm entertaining, you see? With respect for EA and with honourable intent, Sarah

I guess maybe another way to probe into what i'm seeking to know is - what is masculinity as defined by natural law? And for that matter, what is femininity? From my studies, as per the law of gender, gender does certainly manifest in everything in this construct, however I begin to consider the law of Involution (the Divine/Light descends into Matter/Dark in order to know itself) and I can't help but wonder if the idea that the masculine emanates from the female to not be the complete story. The sperm (1) must enter the yoni and penetrate the egg (2) in order to create the 3rd: Life. By this logic it seem that the order of operations is the opposite. Yes, the masculine does inevitably emanate from the feminine, but there is an action that occurs prior to that that is apparently a masculine act (thrust). I apologize for not accepting the answer without question, but something just seems off about this so I can't help but probe to get a deeper comprehension, in order to see more of the story on this. Is it fair to say that Lilith is a working theory and not the absolute bottom line on this matter?

Given the title of this thread I want to post rather than creating a new one -- My question is: does EA recognize a masculine archetype (such as Mars, for instance, or the Sun?) as one that exemplifies a natural and undistorted expression? While I can appreciate the perspective on lilith and her role, it would be useful, especially for male clients, to have an actual masculine archetype to draw from and relate to. In gratitude, Sarah

Thanks for taking time to answer, Rad. This brings another question to mind. Given the Sun is considered the slowest moving body, has JWG ever spoken about using a heliocentric model for EA? The vast majority of the EA paradigm makes logical and intuitive sense to me, but this way of reading the Sun, at least when done geocentrically, seems to be antithetical to natural law because it is ignoring the law of cycles, the law of rhythm and the law of polarity in context to the Sun in a geocentric chart. I say this because the Sun from a geocentric perspective does, appear to move faster than the vast majority of bodies in the solar system due to it actually being a projection from the Earth... we see this via the Earth Sign in a chart, which is always the opposite sign to the Sun. I'm aware that JWG said that the Sun is the central body, therefore gets different treatment in chart interpretation, but it makes reading charts, especially transit charts a very awkward process when taking phasal relationship into account. I wish JWG was here to speak to... I feel with him no longer actively involved the paradigm it may grow stagnant and halt its own evolution... quite ironic considering the foundation of this paradigm is Evolution itself. This is something I feel I had to share as someone who has great respect for EA and for Natural Law. Thank you for listening, Sarah

I have the book you mentioned, but clearly I could benefit from a re-read of the material. Thank you for clarifying my questions, Rad. And thank you for the reminder of Yukteswar's words. With gratitude, Sarah

If I'm correct, Cameron Allen is EA trained and an herbalist. He's quite talented and insightful and surely has much to contribute regarding the areas of interest you asked about. He's on twitter (@CAdreaM7) and can be found at https://www.cadreamplanet.com

This answers the question perfectly. Many thanks, Rad.

This parable is very useful to keep in mind - it is important to also be aware of evil as a whole, as a force, as JWG has spoken about (he didn't want to teach on Lucifer, but knew he had to from what he has shared) -- there are great benefits that come from focusing on one's own internal world, while not ignoring evil that you see in the world... but as you put, Eagle, dealing with your own mote first. In doing this, the results experienced and manifested will be Good and will be both felt within and through the actions taken without. With Mars being what takes action for the Soul and the link between Scorpio/Lucifer/Evil... with Pluto being in the final degrees of Capricorn that inconjunct-by-sign energy between it and Mars/Gemini can really "refresh" the stagnant air of both the Soul at this stage of its journey, and loosen up the fixed air Saturnian/Aquarian construct by stirring things up in order to get the mind to see from new and interesting (and triggering, haha) angles...

Hey all, here to share what I'm seeing in the transits, at least as of today, the 18th of Jan. So it looks like the Moon's nodes are squaring the nodes of Neptune, hitting exact around the last full moon. Me and Jordyn spoke a bit about the full moon in the EA view episode for Capricorn, though at the time I did not focus on the nodes of Neptune. Funny that because Neptune is so elusive and yet all pervasive in the consciousness, both in the microcosm and the macrocosm of our individual and collective reality. Neptune itself, being in Pisces, is ending a cycle with regard to how we all are able to navigate the physical reality as spiritual beings living in human form. And yet we see with its South Node being in Aquarius that there has been much static accumulated within the frequency of the individuated unconscious for most people. So much so, that the objectivity of Aquarian/Uranian/11th house energy, where ever it shows up in the chart for a person will be experiencing a necessary challenge in seeing objectively, and the illusion that one is seeing clearly/objectively will also exist in many cases. This is further emphasized by the fixed nature of the grand cross between the moon's nodes and Neptune's -- identifying with one's illusions - one can either double down and root into a false sense of self, blindness, or they may be in the process of a crisis in consciousness wherein the veils on their consciousness are being removed - so many possibilities as to how this will play out being that everyone is at different stages on their path. What is more, with Lucifer balsamic to Neptune's South Node and approaching a tighter square with the Moon's Nodes the emotional manipulation that Lucifer is inclined to employ may be hard to **feel** due to the nature of Aquarian energy. With Uranus in Taurus and the stress so many are under due to survival fears (etc) makes it even more challenging to ground and feel, and yet it seems to be exactly where the collective will benefit, heal and grow. But wait, there's even more! Then if you see that Venus is balsamic to Saturn, also both in Aquarius, we can see a culmination of survival fears with regard to betrayals and misuses of power (Moon's SN in scorpio) that have resulted in traumatization -- seems a lot of this is coming up for people and there is quite a risk to cling to the past and rely on habits of of the past to cope with the staticky undertone of panic that is playing out in the background all around. Hardening the heart (opposition to Leo) is something to be aware of, how it deafens the ears and blinds the eyes, numbs the body from feeling pain and pleasure (square to Taurus archetypically) .Given the nature of how Aquarius has developed in the human collective other manifestations that are the go-to at present include - the risk of cliquish behaviour (no coincidence that the Davos summit is happening during this transit), otherism, cancel culture, lack of compassion for people outside of one's group/community bubble, projections onto those who attempt to further their own or others individuation (aka go into the unknown) come up. This can happen in so many aspects of individual and collective life that it would be a novel in itself to describe all the possibilities. Lucifer, especially in a new phase to Pluto in Cap seems to be quite the devil whispering into the minds of people, confusing many into thinking they see clearly, when in fact they just may be creating the opposite outcome to what they want. North node of Neptune in Leo speaks from such a disconnect from the Divine, saying "No one gets to be special but ME! No one who is different or unpleasing to me gets to shine!" +Pluto in Cap and you get..."You have to do things MY way! I'm right! You're wrong. I refuse to empathize because you're beneath me, unworthy of being heard. I will make no attempt to understand where you're coming from. You OFFEND me! And for that the punishment is... EXILE (aka Scorpio + Capricorn which is akin to death over time, at least as far as the ancestral memory is concerned, hearkening back to that Neptune SN in Aquarius -- ) muhuhwahaha" (ahem, pardon me) With the above being connected to Neptune via its current sign of Pisces the above diatribe will be even more subtle and difficult to notice within oneself, and being that Neptune's north node is ruled by the Sun, there is an attempt by Nature to bring individuals to creative self actualization, though illusions related to pride may be ore pronounced until the time for disillusionment arrives... Seems Mars travelling back through it's shadow path can benefit from diversifying what it knows, gather information and learn from a variety of sources and languages, especially the kind of languages that speak from a deeper strata which lies beneath the deeply repressed and distorted emotions that obfuscate the truth behind the words spoken in the way one has been conditioned to use (Cap Mercury). With Mercury stationing direct and balsamic to Pluto Hygeia, and the Sun, the ability to "read between the lines" is part of the purification process, it seems. Speaking of Hygeia in Cap -- she is balsamic to Pluto, which appears to echo the benefit of cleansing conditioning that has taught one to judge a book by its cover, conditioning that has taught one to be lacking in compassion, especially for those who seem "foreign" to them, not of their nation or culture, or gender. There is much opportunity to make headway in healing age old scars that have accumulated to the point of creating blindness (going back to the grand fixed cross between Neptune's Nodes and the Moon's). To choose to see clearly above all else, to choose Good over Evil every time the opportunity is noticed will produce beneficial results. This will all contribute to the Pluto ingress into Aquarius manifesting auspiciously. Regarding what was said about Hygeia in this post, Uranus in new phase to the Moon's North Node and full phase opposite to the South Node of the Moon echoes healing and strengthening opportunities - To get back into the body, to learn how to be with the body but not be sucked into the story the body tells. To provide presence and space to cultivate homeostasis. From there the body can tend to itself and release somatic knots/scars. This, in turn, improves the integrity of the connection to the soma, which is necessary to perceive reality clearly + objectively, both in the microcosm (inner world) and the macrocosm (outer world). This seems especially relevant given the next sign Uranus will be transiting through is Gemini . And considering Pluto in Aquarius... this is a time of preparation so that the body is grounded enough to work through what is to come with two root chakra planets moving into Air energy.

Thank you Rad, that is very helpful.

Thanks for that, Ari. The quote I initially indicated comes from EA Glossary, Page 560, Table 11. I'll paste a screenshot for reference. I appreciate the quotes from JWG's Pluto II book as well, though I am already familiar with it and therein lies the conundrum - it is a description that is using language that I'm hoping can be deepened/expanded on / described in different words. What I am hoping for is to hear how those teaching this material would describe this dynamic in their own words. By hearing others who teach this material describe this from their personal understanding and their own language my hope is to expand my comprehension of the dynamic of Venus/Mars as it relates to completing oneself through relationships.

Thanks for that, Ari. The quote I initially indicated comes from EA Glossary, Page 560, Table 11. I'll paste a screenshot for reference. I appreciate the quotes from JWG's Pluto II book as well, though I am already familiar with it and therein lies the conundrum - it is a description that is using language that I'm hoping can be deepened/expanded on / described in different words. What I am hoping for is to hear how those teaching this material would describe this dynamic in their own words. By hearing others who teach this material describe this from their personal understanding and their own language my hope is to expand my comprehension of the dynamic of Venus/Mars as it relates to completing oneself through relationships.

Thanks for the confirmation, Rad!

Follow up question to this thread of thought -- if the evolutionary intention relative to Pluto starts with the polarity point and then the North Node is considered in context, does it not stand to reason that this would be applicable to all planets in the chart? i.e., the polarity point of the planet is to be considered before integrating/synthesizing the north node of said planet?

Ah! This is great! Thank you for sharing that link, Ari.

Thank you, Rad. This is very helpful.

Hi Rad, I realize that the way I sequenced the numbers appears to imply I mean a square that is separating (or New Phase, like you said). To clarify what I mean by culminating is that the square between the planet and the nodes is becoming tighter, moving from, say, 9 or 8 degrees toward a 0 degree square aspect.